I give up. I’ve tried time and time again to dialogue with those in the transsexuals aren’t transgender camp! Every time I try to instigate a dialogue, they flip out.
First, I notice that the TS-not-TG camp loves to segregate the trans community into a TS/IS (IS = intersex) camp and crossdressers + everyone else is into some other camp that can never be associated with TS people. I thought that this was funny because some non-Houston IS people freak out when TS people try to group TS and IS people together.
Currently Ashley Love is the leading apologist for the segregationists. She rails against people who dare refer to those whose history violates cultural gender stereotypes as being transgender. She literally believes that doing so is “assault and sexual objectification.”
I’ve tried over and over again to engage this segregationist group in dialogue and I guess today I finally have had enough of trying to talk to them. They’re exactly like trying to talk to a young-earth creationist fundi. Today, I once again tried to reach out to this group and, for the last time, had the door slammed in my face:
Here’s what I wrote to her:
From what I can gather, you feel that including transsexuals under the term transgender, “… de-medicalize women of transexxual history…”
How does having one word to identify all whose history violates cultural gender stereotypes somehow erase the existence of the small mountain of mutually supportive studies which shows that transsexualism is a medical issue? Where are these “transgender” people who are going around denying that transsexualism is a biological issue?
When I read the things you post, I just don’t understand. I’ve spent time reading pro-segregationist writings and I just don’t understand. Transsexuals, crossdressers, intersex people, gender queer people, etc are all different. There’s no question about it! Transsexualism is a biological issue and we have a number of studies to support that conclusion. Gay, Inc doesn’t have the best interests of transsexuals in mind; they’ve thrown us under the bus time and again.
I don’t hear people arguing any of these points. I think we agree on all these points. What I don’t understand is why the answer to all of these problems is to blame a word and to claim that those who use this word in a context consistent with the English language are the problem. I just don’t get it and I’ve not yet met one pro-segregationist that’s been willing to actually talk about it. Instead, most of you use any opportunity for dialogue as an opportunity to PWN or claim to be victims – not of the right wing – but of those who use the word “transgender”.
I made the video mocking the pro-segregationist stance because it continues to seem like nothing more than a paroxysm of histrionics propped up by one logical fallacy after another. Perhaps my view is incorrect, but until at least one person from the anti-transgender camp is willing to talk about it in a way that’s reasoned, my view can’t change.
The last time I tried to talk to someone in your anti-transgender camp, they claimed that I “beat off while wearing womens cloths” and didn’t say anything after they found out that the drag community regularly raises funds (thousands upon thousands since 2008) for transsexual surgeries in Houston.
The last time I asked you to expound on your ideas you simply deleted my post instead of sharing your thoughts. I’m asking that this time you please consider the possibility of entering into some kind of a dialogue.
At the very least, PLEASE answer is one question: What one word would you use to talk about everyone whose history violates cultural gender stereotypes? Obviously you don’t like the word “transgender” so, what word do you use that captures absolutely everyone who can’t fit the stereotype of what all men and women are supposed to be according to the culture we live in?
Seriously, each time I try to talk to any of you, you fly off the handle. So, would you – or ANYONE in the anti-transgender camp – please, please, please consider being open to a dialogue? Through PM, email, video chat, phone call… ANYTHING… Just, please consider a dialogue?
Here’s what her response was:
Yup, she simply deleted my post… Just like she did the last time I asked to start a dialogue. Yes, that’s right. She’s deleted my questions before… Hence my bright idea to screen capture it before she had a chance to continue pretending that those who think like I do won’t listen to her or the group she represents.
While she wasn’t interested in talking about the mud she enjoys slinging, she was interested in sending me a PM to inform me that I offended her:
Here’s my reply:
Your PM perfectly exposes the need for more dialogue. When I read what you write, it absolutely comes across as being anti-transgender to me. That’s why I again attempted to reach out to you. Would you rather me continue thinking that you hate transgender people if that (as you seem to be saying) isn’t the case? The things you write do come across *to me* as being anti-transgender. Apparently that’s not your intent when you post the things you do, but it certainly comes off that way to a number of people, myself included.
Bad mouthing you? I’ve never once name-called or said anything that I didn’t just post on your wall. I’ve certainly mocked what I currently understand to be the platform of the TS-not-TG group because everything I’ve encountered thus far from your side seems to be nothing more than vitriolic hyperbole. I’ve tried over and over to talk with anyone in the TS-not-TG camp and they have always broken down into personal attacks or they simply end the dialogue.
As I said, your PM is a perfect example as to why there needs to be some sort of dialogue started. Since you’ve just said that you’re not anti-transgender, I don’t understand what your concerns are. If you asked me what I think your concerns are, I’d say that from what I read, you think transgender people have somehow stripped you of your identity, are apparently lying by claiming that transsexualism isn’t a medical issue and that transgender people are standing in the way of equality. Maybe this isn’t what you actually mean, but it is precisely what I – and many, many others – get when we read your posts. If I am (and there’s every possibility that I am) misunderstanding your issues, PLEASE correct me. This is precisely the reason I’m putting all this time and energy into trying to dialogue.
Would you be willing to continue a dialogue? If not, can you refer me to someone who shares your views that would be willing to dialogue?
You seem like a really intelligent, passionate and articulate advocate. I’m attempting to engage you in a dialogue because I’m hoping that you won’t simply call me a bunch of names and end a dialogue.
Of course I have questions and of course I will question the logic behind your statements because I want to understand. I really hope that you would do the same! Just because I question your logic doesn’t mean that I’m questioning you, your identity or your truth. I simply want to understand. Believe me, I hope that the TS-not-TG camp won’t turn out to be what I currently think it is. Currently, the TS-not-TG camp is an embarrassing to me. I currently view the TS-not-TG camp as being so blinded by their own transphobia that they actually think that our oppressors will gift us rights if we can just get them to view transsexuals as being “normal” (because, after all, we’re suffering from a medical issue – unlike those funky crossdressers) – that it is a smart move to tether our right to equality to the ever changing notions of normalcy; that the TS-not-TG folks are transphobic in the same way that the Mattachine Society was homophobic. Maybe this perception is all wrong, but until someone in the TS-not-TG camp will actually talk to me, how can I be expected to change my perception? I’m certainly willing to learn otherwise. I’m absolutely willing to cast off my current views if they turn out to be invalid!
Thus far, I’ve not been able to successfully talk with anyone who seems to feel like you do. When I question the logical underpinnings of an argument, every single person I’ve tried to talk with either ceases to respond or devolves into schoolyard name calling
If you choose to actually dialogue, you might be frustrated, offended or angered with my questions – I can’t promise that you won’t. Certainly my questions would not be intended to frustrate, offend or anger you. I just ask that you share your thoughts honestly so that I can do the same… and hopefully I will be able to correct any incorrect views I currently hold concerning the TS-not-TG camp. However, if the TS-not-TG camp can’t even withstand being questioned, it will certainly reinforce my current view that the TS-not-TG movement has more to do with dogma than rationality.
I’m really, really hoping that you’ll be open to dialogue… or at the very least refer me to someone who is.
Thank you for taking the time to respond to me and I hope you have a great evening!
After sending my reply, I went back to the post that initiated Love’s PM:
Yup, her response was to block me on FaceBook. And you know what? I give up. I really think that people in the Love Camp are just pseudo-victims prone to histrionics and I believe that because I’ve not been offered any evidance to support any other conclusion.
If someone from the TS-not-TG camp wants to dialogue, my door is wide open! I would welcome an actual dialogue, but as of today, I’m not wasting any more of my time and energy begging them to open the lines of communication. From what I’ve seen, opening the lines of communication would seriously harsh the victimization buzz they’re enjoying right now. It’s really hard to be a victim when your supposed victimizer is begging you to correct their misconceptions.
Basically, I now see them as the trolls of the trans community. They’re haters and they’re gonna hate.
2/24/2011 UPDATE: I’m really happy with the outcome of this post. While the usual suspects did what they’ve continued to do over the past several months, a number of folks have stepped forward and we are currently enjoying dialogues without ad hominem attacks or strawman arguments. Thus far, I’ve found that there doesn’t seem to be any one real consensus on why transsexuals should be excluded from the transgender community. Thus far, everyone has had their own personal reason. About half are annoyed with Love and one even stated that they feel that she’s an “elitist.”
To those of you who have shared your views and experiences with me over the past few days, THANK YOU! I really appreciate having the opportunity to learn more about what seems to be largely personal reasons for your stance on this issue 🙂
Tags: Transgender TS vs TG
and right on cue, the representative of the Transsexual Taliban comes storming out of their caves to spew more of their patented brand of divisive nonsense..
The question I alway ask that never seems to get answered by the WWBT's is if they hate the transgender community so much, and feel they are superior to it, why do they keep hanging around?
I don't mind folks speaking their mind. I don't mind that the hater immediately did what haters do. It's just unfortunate that being a pseudo-victim is more important to them than actual dialogue. As with Ashley the above pingback was far interested in lame attempts at a PWN than addressing even one of the questions I asked of Love.
Why? Because haters gonna hate.
*sigh* I hate it when people refuse to dialogue, especially in our community.
Cristan, you and I had a dialogue in the comments of Enough Non-Sense. It didn't start out that way. You accused me of all kinds of misattribution because you thought what I wrote about Donna Rose's blog was about yours. Once we got by that, there was dialogue.
You say you want to be convinced in order to change your views. As I recall, we reached an impasse. It didn't matter how convincing and logical I thought I was being. But if you want to continue the dialogue, please go to my blog, where you can find my email address.
Actually, I responded to an ad hominem attack directed at me: "Another silly and very stupid video from Cristan Williams at the Houston TG Center as she strains for some sense of credibility while preaching the TG party line that genitals do not define gender." My initial post began with, "Great! Bring on the rebuttal!"
You are right in that I initially thought that you were attributing quotes to me that I didn't say. You provided a thoughtful response… which I appreciated. In fact this is how my reply began… "Ariel – Thanks for your very thoughtful reply. I appreciate that you took the time to think about your response and focus on sharing your experience. I really appreciate that." and this is how my reply ended, "Again, thank you for your very thoughtful response. I really appreciated reading it!"
I didn't know that we had reached an impasse. Your last post was:
To which I replied…
You ceased responding.
The last person to post was Not Your Friend who asked "Cristan can you post a link to a website where all this is going on? What groups are sponsoring this until now unheard of level of services in Houston." And I responded.
That was it.
If you would like to continue the dialogue, I certainly wouldn't mind!
Actually, Cristan, what you said is horse shit lies. What you did on my blog was respond to a RESPONSE to an attack on my blog – that YOU made – in your stupid, and most juvenile video posted on YouTube. It was silly, ignorant, and just more of TG Inc. and GAY, Inc. BS.
Monica Roberts, your incessant, racist, bigoted WHITE Women Born Transsexual crap is an embarrassment to black people everywhere. TransGriot has censored and banned so many dissenting points of view that no one comments there at all. Monica Roberts, you've made it clear that you don't like white people at all. Fair enough…this white woman, for one, thinks you are a joke and doesn't like you either. Because you are black doesn't give you a free pass in anybody's book…get over it.
Get your facts straight, Cristan. Just like everything TG, Inc. and GAY, Inc., just because you say it doesn't make it true. Quit twisting the truth and the words of those you correspond with…and trying to rewrite history.
Monica Roberts, face reality, get a job, move out of your parents house, go on a diet, and then just STFU…everybody's tired of you angry black tranny pantomime. It's nobody's fault but your own, much less WWBT, if you can't cut it now that you've transitioned. What do you expect, a free ride?
And, both of you, don't be surprised that none of us wish to engage you two…perhaps when you have something relevant to say we might reconsider. But, until then, we've listened too long to your TG claptrap and are no longer interested…unless it's to point out your lies and ignorance. We've engaged you, I'VE ENGAGED YOU…and you've lost. Nobody buys into your TG non-sense.
Wow. Suzan, that was some insightful criticism! "Cristan is a big stupid head liar and I can't be bothered to point out anything she said that was untrue becuz it's all just lies just cuz she said it!! And Monica, you're just a big fat loser who lives with her parents and nobody likes you!! Also, you're BLACK! So take that!!"
Okay, after that… if I ever thought WBT ever had any shred of credibility it is long gone now.
The sad thing is that this Suzan person is sitting at home right now, her nostrils real big and flared thinking that she just said something sooooo very deep. Like, she is probably really proud of everything she just said here.
Sad…. :/
Um…very confused first time reader here…WTH? Whats the gist of the disagreement? What is each sides point? Why are you at odds? What have I stepped into? Who's on first? I live in an area where there IS no real trans advocacy. The local PFLAG does not publicly advertise their meeting place because it is possibly dangerous to do so. A gay man was killed in a horrible gay bashing a mile from where my partner worked. I consider myself Trans (FTM) /Lesbian identified. I have not had surgery or T because I can't afford it and because its too early in this journey to make those decisions. I speak at colleges openly as a trans and lesbian identified, yet am very careful in other areas, because it could cost my life. Was at a bar where a young MTF came to hang out to hear the music. She entered the bar as a male, and changed in the ladies room. We had a wonderful time with her, but when she left, she changed back to male persona, and I walked her to her car because I was very concerned about the straight boys playing pool in the corner who were having a homophobic nervous break down and resenting that their girlfriends were having a great time dancing with the lesbians. I did not think she was safe to walk to her car alone and she agreed with me. I have never heard the transexual vs. transgender argument. Its live or die, and our tiny GLBTQ community does its best to support each other, period. We just had a run in with Westboro Baptist church and believe it or not, this area fielded a picket line to SUPPORT Westboro. (I have to say our counterprotest was bigger! :D) What are the differences you are fighting over?
@Susan: You’ve just illustrated the “paroxysm of histrionics” this post is titled after extremely well. Instead of offering reasoned arguments supported by evidence, you instead resort to one ad hominem attack after another. As I said, haters gonna hate.
Pretending that my blog post was all or even mostly about you won’t make your point. I was talking about Love’s refusal to dialogue while simultaneously publically claiming a victim status. I referred to your blog 3 times. I noted that folks in your camp tend to not deal with a rather glaring double standard (noted by the screen capture). I then noted that most of the folks in your camp seem to be incapable of engaging in meaningful dialogue and instead resort to name calling (which you've spindly illustrated).
As demonstrated in your response, you seem to be more interested in transitory schadenfreude than actual dialogue. You consistently name-call and you consistently attack.
Note that Ariel and I have had a rather good dialogue. Please go back and read through the way in which she and I interacted and then compare that to your posts and the posts of your other commenters. You will find that she and I engaged each other with respect in that we didn’t devolve into ad hominem attacks and that we both tried to offer evidence to support the claims we were making. Both Ariel and I will most likely continue our dialogue away from your site.
I made both my video and this post in response to the way that you, Love and many others on your side of this issue choose to share your views. My video reviewed the major fallacious arguments I consistently encounter. This blog post is me making the choice that I will no longer bother trying to engage people like Love and yourself. I will instead dialogue with folks like Ariel. Additionally a number of others have come forward on FaceBook who are also interested in simply discussing the issue.
You can name-call and rant all you like because it will make zero difference. Your opinion is meaningless to me because you have worked hard to make it so. You’ve demonstrated that you are prone to histrionics and I’d much rather spend my time talking with people on your side of the fence who can write a paragraph without devolving into personal attacks and schoolyard name-calling.
@Cameron – There's a small group of transsexual internet trolls who believes that genitalia is where your gender comes from and that transsexuals should not be a part of any larger community.
Cristan, one reason I stopped was that I was in the comments section of SA-ET, not my own blog. I figured that was enough. But the other reason was that even though we had a dialogue going, mostly it was me stating my position and you stating yours. Despite you saying that you agreed with some of what I wrote, the way you answered showed me that you didn't really — like when you continued to refer to the external changes as 10 percent, when clearly I was implying a much higher figure, something on the order of 50/50. Then you characterized stealth in such an extreme way that I realized that it didn't matter what I said; you were going to have a pat response to it.
So it was a dialogue in the sense that we exchanged messages and we didn't call each other names. But it wasn't a very good dialogue. To me, your positions seem pretty entrenched, and that you don't really want to know why TS-not-TG think the way we do (which is hardly monolithic in the first place). The video you posted that started it all, an attempted parody, hit a few straw men but missed the mark you were aiming at. You don't see it that way. That's what I mean by an impasse.
I would be happy to try to dialogue in email, away from blogs. I don't give up easily. But neither will I whack my head against a brick wall.
@Ariel Of course we both have entrenched ideas that we most certainly we will go back and forth on. I see that is part of the work of dialogue. The issue for me is that I feel going back and forth is absolutely okay. I did agree with a number of things you said. I can only assume (perhaps incorrectly) that you felt moved to make those points because you were operating under the idea that we might not see eye-to-eye… and yet, on some things, we did. For me, that's what a dialogue is. It helps me better grasp how you see the issue as well as how you are interpreting my stance. My expectation with dialogue isn't to reach total agreement on everything. My goal isn't to change your mind. My goal is to ask questions – and yes, sometimes pointed questions – and allow you to do the same.
As to the transition percentages you talked about, we may never see eye to eye on that. My experience was that I sent a lot more time dealing with the social, emotional and familial repercussions of transition than I did dealing with taking a pill or seeing a doctor. For me, the inside work was far more taxing than dealing with a prescription for ethinyl estradiol or learning to readjust my dept perception around my chest area. Having said this, I recognize that I might not really understand what you meant when you talked about the physical transition representing most of the work around transition. You didn't expound on this issue very much and I recognize that I may be misunderstanding you completely. Having said all of this, I have to ask if this issue is really a deal-breaker for you. Is the issue of whether transition is 90% or 50% inside work that big of an issue? For me, it isn't and even if we never agree on a specific percentage point, I'd still like to learn more about how you view your transition in the context of your life as well as our culture – or at least as much as you feel comfortable talking about.
Yes, I'd like to continue talking. I really appreciated that we were able to share our thoughts without the conversation devolving into drama. Thanks for the follow-up post!
I have to agree with Ariel on this one. I find Cristans "attempt at dialogue" to be very condescending and dismissive of women of transsexual history's views and realities.
Cristan posting a private email between Cristan and Ashley is trashy, and unprofessional, and makes this look like a petty hatchet job.
Cristan, maybe the reason women dont want to debate with you is because you are so viciously against their narrative. Your video was a mockery of their legitimate views. Its no wonder they dont take you seriously
Its obvious you have personal and financial reason for defending the umbrella term transgender, your non-profit has the term in the title! You are just a attention whore who has stars in her eyes. Apparently you think attacking Ashley Love will somehow make you a hero with the TeeGee gang. Actually, it makes you look like a bully and a joke.
I dont find your intentions to be genuine. You keep using the word "hate", but its obvious by the way you are trying to slander Susan, Ashley and all women of transsexual history who want nothing to do with transvestites that it is you, Ms Cristan, who is the true hater
@Tara – I encourage you to compare your post with Ariel's post. Note that she didn't name-call or make completely unsubstantiated claims. Note that when she talks about her perspective that she makes a statement and then tries to support that statement with evidence.
I support you in being as offended, angry or indignant as you want to make yourself. Frankly, I don't care what you think about me because your post hasn't given me any cause to care. You've resorted to ad hominem attacks, made blanket statements and tried to pass of statements of opinion as fact.
"You are just a attention whore who has stars in her eyes" This is an ad hominem attack.
"Cristan posting a private email between Cristan and Ashley is trashy, and unprofessional, and makes this look like a petty hatchet job." This is your opinion and yet you stated it as if it were a fact.
"… women dont want to debate with you is because you are so viciously against their narrative." This is a blanket statement that's demonstrably false.
Note that Ariel didn't choose to resort to these types of schoolyard tactics.
As to the hate issue, you're taking my statement out of context. Please look up the internet meme, "haters gonna hate." The meme means that a contrarian will be contrary.
Note the way in which I've responded to Ariel. Note that I've attempted to acknowledge that I might be mistaken. Note that I've asked her for more information. That's dialogue. Conversely, it seems to me that you've simply attempted to PWN me. Why? I suspect it's because a "haters gonna hate."
Cristan, I think you do both the transsexual and transgender communities a BIG disservice by making suck a mocking video. Its because of your disrespect to transsexual women (who don't identify as TG) that you are not the proper one for them to be engaging in dialog with. You've made up you mind, are rude and act like the authority on everything. I agree with Tara, posting a private email exchange that was not on a public wall is pretty tacky. Yep, I said it: tacky. It makes you look like a teenager out for a bitter revenge. So what, Love deleted your long winded silly rant, its her page, she doesn't owe your anything. Again, if I were a transsexual woman, I too wouldn't want to engage with someone who made such a degrading video. You just aren't the caliber of an advocate that someone like Ashley Love would want to demean herself by engaging in one of your boar fights. No offense. I just think this whole hatchet job is lame, and your hypocrisy is astounding.
@Andera – Thank you for your reply. I can understand that folk on the other side of the fence feel offended by my video. Of the 3 sections of my 5 minute video, the first section did poke fun at some of the more incredible statements I've heard coming from your side. Please understand that I made that video after months of trying to engage your side without success. While I lampooned 4 statements made by your side by speeding up my voice while I read the claims, I didn't misrepresent what your side said nor did I attribute names to the quotes and I didn't once name-call. As far as a lampoon goes, it's my opinion that it was fairly mild – especially compared to what I've seen directed at me. Other than informing me that you have chosen to take high offence to my video, would you care to address the actual points I made in the video?
If you choose to frame my revealing that Love felt I offender her as being tacky, I won't argue because that's your opinion. I'm okay with you choosing to hold whatever opinion of me or my actions you choose to hold. Additionally, I'm not in a competition with Love. Love may very well be a better advocate than me and I'm okay with that. I'm not frustrated that Love deleted my post; rather, I'm frustrated that Love continues to spread the narrative that she is a victim while purposefully blocking any attempts at dialogue.
Again, thanks for sharing your perspective!
0.0 wow…at the risk of repeating a very old quote – If we do not hang together, we shall surely hang separately. (Thomas Paine). Wish it wasn't like this.
I expect to hear a howl over the following: Transsexual/Intersex is a medical condition affecting a small or superminority of people: Transgender is a public and political title used as an all inclusive umbrella of those looking for living and help.
When the identity politics of the TS not TG camps gears up to be loud, all those who practice any form of identity politics inhibit or damage the ability to gain the very things we as a dual community need. I happen to be a Biochemical/Genetic Intersex working towards convergence of my self to a comfortable point on the binary scale, and I work as a volunteer advocate for human rights. These Rights include the TS/TG/IS/LGB/Questioning/Ally and all sexual and social points surrounding and away from that core.
The TS not TG camp has a tendency to ignore the reality that we are all people, some blocking us, some assisting us. I read the above blog, and the subsequent comments, and found those who argue against you seem to have a difficulty with the written word. It does give one to pause concerning their ability to rationally debate a point. And yes, I expect to see a sizable number of postings attempting to castigate me. Not a first, won't be a last.
I too once (until recently) received Ashley Love's posts on Facebook, until I had the temerity to mildly show distaste for a very offensive article that she posted. The post was deleted, and then I put up another responding to the same offensive article. It was a pretty civil response, but clearly showed that I did not like the gist of the article. That was enough for her, apparently, and I was off her list. So, no more posts from Ashely for me, apparently. I've am among those who have lost their Ashley privileges. Well, I am small potatoes, and e hadn't corresponded really, at all. I admit that the response irked me a little, as it was so fast and impersonal. Still, it was her page and she can friend an unfriend whomever she wishes.
But I have been fascinated with this argument for some time, and have been reading everything on it for a while. I too have been fascinated with what makes the TS not TG-ers tick. It really was a mystery for me too, until recently. It recently occurred to me that one of the core driving things behind this (though certainly not the only), is a deep transphobia, particularly as regards to sexuality. Put bluntly, the TS not TG contingent thinks that almost all CD/TG sexuality is icky. They are repulsed by it. They think it is shameful and repugnant.
Think about it: what are most of their epithets based on? Almost always the worst insult that a TS not TG-er can hurl (in their eyes) is a sexually based one: "beat off while waring women's clothes", "transvestic fetishist", etc. Rather like the true root of the religious rights repulsion of gays, (particularly), the revulsion that the TS not TG crowd exhibits to the "TG" strawman is that of distaste for a perceived sexual act, or perhaps the type of person that they perceive doing the sexual act. Those who are a bit more rational perhaps can argue the point with a few more layers of refinement, but at the core, to me this seems to be what this is about.
I identify myself as a trans separatist and also consider that I can discuss the matter without histrionics. I feel transexual people should be separate from the transgender umbrella for a multitude of reasons which are too time consuming to go into here. Most fundamentally, I have no comprehension of how we got included in the transgender umbrella when we are quite distinctly (even according to your own posts) unique. It seems very strange that anyone could argue any other way.
I didnt much care for Susan's post about Monica Roberts, it was too personal which is not my style, but she is undeniably a racist. I would have signed in with my facebook account to make this post but for some reason I cant.